Depression Learning

Bad Luck

Question:

The mental health system (along with the rest of the health care system) is in a period of transition right now to what they call "managed care," and things are really screwed up.  If you need help, here is the approach to take right now:  Bug people.  Call over and over and over, insist on talking to a doctor, go back to the office over and over.  Be persistant.  Be a rock.  Be unmovable.  Eventually, they will pay attention to you.   Unfortunately, with the weird funding and other stuff going on, care is suffering right now (my mother is a nurse so I know a lot about this kind of thing).  Just don’t give up – be assertive and you will get what you need. Oh, well.  I went to the Dr’s today and was turned away b/c too many doctors were sick that day and they couldn’t accommodate me.  So now more waiting.  I even told a counselor (all that was available) how bad my problem has gotten and that I am beginning to feel like I want to die and he was nice but I still ended up outside with no answers.  No wonder so many people commit suicide, I can’t believe people pretend that there are sooo many people listening, when even trained medical doctors turn me away. Loosing hope and everything else, quickly, Stef

– Spam Avoidance: You can Email me at "future at oz dot net". My web page is at: http://www.oz.net/~future/. Programmers: Avoid reading the backs of shampoo bottles, "Lather.  Rinse.  Repeat." can cause serious problems.

Response:

Hi Stef, I don’t know the whole story here because this is the only post that I have read.  You are seeing a doctor, but are you also seeing a therapist?  I’m a firm believer in therapy (alone or with meds if needed).  Feeling suicidal is often a symtom of depression. I wonder if you might get a more appropriate response dealing with a mental health professional.  It’s not something to mess around with. If you are feeling suicidal and the Dr.’s aren’t listening, call a crisis line. IMO, mental health professionals are much better prepared to treat depression than MD’s. Good luck, and I hope you find some peace. Take care, kd – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Oh, well.  I went to the Dr’s today and was turned away b/c too many doctors were sick that day and they couldn’t accommodate me.  So now more waiting.  I even told a counselor (all that was available) how bad my problem has gotten and that I am beginning to feel like I want to die and he was nice but I still ended up outside with no answers.  No wonder so many people commit suicide, I can’t believe people pretend that there are sooo many people listening, when even trained medical doctors turn me away. Loosing hope and everything else, quickly, Stef — **Please post** all responses b/c my e-mail is mad at me

– The permanent temptation of life is to confuse dreams with reality. The permanent defeat of life comes when dreams are surrendered to reality.                                    James Michner

Response:

Oh, well.  I went to the Dr’s today and was turned away b/c too many doctors were sick that day and they couldn’t accommodate me.  So now more waiting.  I even told a counselor (all that was available) how bad my problem has gotten and that I am beginning to feel like I want to die and he was nice but I still ended up outside with no answers.  No wonder so many people commit suicide, I can’t believe people pretend that there are sooo many people listening, when even trained medical doctors turn me away. Loosing hope and everything else, quickly, Stef — **Please post** all responses b/c my e-mail is mad at me

Response:

Stef schreef: Oh, well.  I went to the Dr’s today and was turned away b/c too many doctors were sick that day and they couldn’t accommodate me.  So now more waiting.  I even told a counselor (all that was available) how bad my problem has gotten and that I am beginning to feel like I want to die and he was nice but I still ended up outside with no answers.  No wonder so many people commit suicide, I can’t believe people pretend that there are sooo many people listening, when even trained medical doctors turn me away. Loosing hope and everything else, quickly, Stef — **Please post** all responses b/c my e-mail is mad at me

  I am very sorry to hear about this veritable *Odyssea* of yours. I rarely have heard a story about medical care being so badly provided (e.g. not at all). My heart goes out for you but I am at a loss here (especially as I’m not from USA). Can’t you even find a decent GP? Where do you live and what’s the nearest city where they might have a clinic specialized in anxiety disorders? Please don’t give up. We’re here if nobody is… Philip Peters

Response:

Oh, well.  I went to the Dr’s today and was turned away b/c too many doctors were sick that day and they couldn’t accommodate me.  So now more waiting.  I even told a counselor (all that was available) how bad my problem has gotten and that I am beginning to feel like I want to die and he was nice but I still ended up outside with no answers.  No wonder so many people commit suicide, I can’t believe people pretend that there are sooo many people listening, when even trained medical doctors turn me away. Loosing hope and everything else, quickly, Stef — **Please post** all responses b/c my e-mail is mad at me

Isn’t that the truth?  You go to talk to a doctor or a professional and walk away wondering why in the hell you wasted your time.  But don’t lose hope. We’re all here for a reason.  Right now,  we need support and who better to get it from than people that understand what you’re going through?  *HUG* Heidi

Response:

Oh, well.  I went to the Dr’s today and was turned away b/c too many doctors were sick that day and they couldn’t accommodate me.  So now more waiting.  I even told a counselor (all that was available) how bad my problem has gotten and that I am beginning to feel like I want to die and he was nice but I still ended up outside with no answers.  No wonder so many people commit suicide, I can’t believe people pretend that there are sooo many people listening, when even trained medical doctors turn me away. Loosing hope and everything else, quickly, Stef

This is serious.  If you are feeling at all like you might cause harm to yourself you need to talk to someone NOW.  If you can’t find a medical group try calling the local Suicide Prevention number.  They actually do more than suicide prevention, they help a lot of people who don’t know where to turn.  (My old boyfriend used to volunteer there.)  They will listen to you and take you seriously.  Chances are that they will be able to come up with some kind of help for you. Let us know how things go. Lori from SF Not one shred of evidence exists in favor of the idea that life is serious.

Response:

Another old post, but wanted you all to see it. Stef Oh, well.  I went to the Dr’s today and was turned away b/c too many doctors were sick that day and they couldn’t accommodate me.  So now more waiting.  I even told a counselor (all that was available) how bad my problem has gotten and that I am beginning to feel like I want to die and he was nice but I still ended up outside with no answers.  No wonder so many people commit suicide, I can’t believe people pretend that there are sooo many people listening, when even trained medical doctors turn me away. Loosing hope and everything else, quickly, Stef — **Please post** all responses b/c my e-mail is mad at me

Response:

This is serious.  If you are feeling at all like you might cause harm to yourself you need to talk to someone NOW.

  Lori, couldn’t let one go…    i, too have suffered depression off and on throughout my life as does my mother…i have yet to see an effective treatment -or- a ‘Suicide Prevention Line’ that RESPECTS the person’s right to decide their own fate…instead the ‘Depression/Suicide Prevention’ Industry seems more interested in keeping you alive just so they can feed off the insurance money…too many hospitals and clinics treat suicical people as ‘dangerous’ as if they plan to hurt others when in fact they are only feeling a lack of interst in their own life…in spite of the high suicide rate, most depressed/suicidal people do not commit suicide, they only say that they don’t feel like living anymore ( i know, i’ve felt this way as long as i can remember)…i am NOT saying that depression/suicical fellings are OK, merely, that the ‘industry’ has this mis-guided, quasi-Right-To-Life attitude that merely focuses on keeping the patient alive without helping the person find a REASON to live which is what they are lacking…i will never submit to a hospital for treatment again because of the way they treat you like a child or worse – as a potential killer… Suicide is taken ’seriously’ but, in the wrong way. Current ‘therapy’ seems to amount to Drugs, More drugs and having therspists let you whine and then give you over-used Zig Ziglar platitudes about ‘positive attitudes’… HA! Give me a reason to live, then, we’ll talk!

Response:

Oh, well.  I went to the Dr’s today and was turned away b/c too many doctors were sick that day and they couldn’t accommodate me.  

It’s the flu, all over North America. Loosing hope and everything else, quickly,

Can you try to get in again soon? what if you call first? Which newsgroup are you reading? — bev ~~~ veb ~~~~~~ vaj ~~~ http://members.tripod.com/~Veb

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Stef, I don’t know the whole story here because this is the only post that I have read.  You are seeing a doctor, but are you also seeing a therapist?  I’m a firm believer in therapy (alone or with meds if needed).  Feeling suicidal is often a symtom of depression. I wonder if you might get a more appropriate response dealing with a mental health professional.  It’s not something to mess around with. If you are feeling suicidal and the Dr.’s aren’t listening, call a crisis line. IMO, mental health professionals are much better prepared to treat depression than MD’s. Good luck, and I hope you find some peace. Take care, kd Oh, well.  I went to the Dr’s today and was turned away b/c too many doctors were sick that day and they couldn’t accommodate me.  So now more waiting.  I even told a counselor (all that was available) how bad my problem has gotten and that I am beginning to feel like I want to die and he was nice but I still ended up outside with no answers.  No wonder so many people commit suicide, I can’t believe people pretend that there are sooo many people listening, when even trained medical doctors turn me away. Loosing hope and everything else, quickly, Stef

Stef: I am noticing something that may be happening all too often with depressed people  - I dont want to sound like im saying anything about your approach to this, but sometimes you have to be REALLY REALLY persistent with DEMANDING that you get care. Sometimes the doctors don’t really see that there’s anything wrong with depressed ppl and they are not always eager to help.  Also, when one is depressed, even a slight signal that the doctor may not be able to help is enough just to be convinced that there is nobody out there to help, that you’re all alone, that nobody cares.. etc.  I’ve done that before – I called a mental health crisis line and when I had to wait 10 rings before it got picked up I became really distraught and was convinced that nobody gave a crap and I was totally alone. Stef be persistent in demanding you get care. Its a double whammy when you are depressed because the thought patterns that go through one’s head when one is depressed give every reason NOT to take yourself seriously, or to think that getting medical care is "worth it". Even if you are convinced that you won’t get care, or you are afraid nobody will help you, perservere. Don’t give up. Camp out in the emergency room if you must. Get in the admitting nurse’s face. Be obvious. But don’t give up. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — **Please post** all responses b/c my e-mail is mad at me — The permanent temptation of life is to confuse dreams with reality. The permanent defeat of life comes when dreams are surrendered to reality.                                   James Michner

Response:

This is serious.  If you are feeling at all like you might cause harm to yourself you need to talk to someone NOW.   Lori, couldn’t let one go…    i, too have suffered depression off and on throughout my life as does my mother…i have yet to see an effective treatment -or- a ‘Suicide Prevention Line’ that RESPECTS the person’s right to decide their own fate…

Bit ingenuous, that. You want somebody to help you NOT suicide, you call the hotline. If you want help in exercising your ”choice,” you call Dr Kevorkian. instead the ‘Depression/Suicide Prevention’ Industry seems more interested in keeping you alive just so they can feed off the insurance money…too many hospitals and clinics treat suicical people as ‘dangerous’ as if they plan to hurt others when in fact they are only feeling a lack of interst in their own life…

Whether it means revenue or not, hospitals are so overwhelmingly in the business of keeping people from dying that they’re not SET UP to assist people in dying. Licensing considerations aside. in spite of the high suicide rate, most depressed/suicidal

These are two different but overlapping classes of people. I have been clinically depressed all my life; suicidal, maybe 3 days total. people do not commit suicide, they only say that they don’t feel like living anymore ( i know, i’ve felt this way as long as i can remember)…i am NOT saying that depression/suicical fellings are OK, merely, that the ‘industry’ has this mis-guided, quasi-Right-To-Life attitude that merely focuses on keeping the patient alive without helping the person find a REASON to live which is what they are lacking…

Physical-medicine hospitals are not there to help you find internal reasons for things. I agree that it is good to HAVE a reason to live, but it’s unrealistic to expect a hospital to provide you with one, as if it could be introduced in an IV drip. i will never submit to a hospital for treatment again because of the way they treat you like a child or worse – as a potential killer…

Everybody is a potential killer. Suicide is taken ’seriously’ but, in the wrong way. Current ‘therapy’ seems to amount to Drugs, More drugs and having therspists let you whine and then give you over-used Zig Ziglar platitudes about ‘positive attitudes’… HA! Give me a reason to live, then, we’ll talk!

Clearly current medical technology has let you down. a.

Response:

its hard to get ansewrs from the docs even if you get in to see them, for the past year I’ve been asking what causes my panic attacks and they beat around the bush. you’ll never hear them come out and say " i don’t have a clue".

My doc doesn’t say that as he beleives it is a neurological disorder.  He sees that as pretty cut and dry. I’ve been told by my doc that morbid thoughts are normal for people with panic disorders but i understad that knowing that doesn’t help much.

Also known as catastrophic thinking. believing it is the first step in getting back some control. it’s not easy but it’s worth not having to take meds forever

And some of us WILL be on meds forever.  Acceptance is also a good thing.  I have tried *talking/thinking/whatever* my way out of this for too long. Gwen (hates taking meds too, but is glad to have her life back)

Response:

Stef , its hard to get ansewrs from the docs even if you get in to see them, for the past year I’ve been asking what causes my panic attacks and they beat around the bush. you’ll never hear them come out and say " i don’t have a clue". I’ve been told by my doc that morbid thoughts are normal for people with panic disorders but i understad that knowing that doesn’t help much. I’m the other way around than you are, I’m consumed by thoughts of my own mortallity, knowing that I won’t be here forever. panic attacks won’t kill you, even though it feels like you dying. believing it is the first step in getting back some control. it’s not easy but it’s worth not having to take meds forever. I really don’t like taking anything if I don’t have to. good luck! darryl

Response:

I cut some of the groups from the cross-posting down to just the groups I read … too many groups … too overwhelming … anyway …    i, too have suffered depression off and on throughout my life as does my mother…i have yet to see an effective treatment -or- a ‘Suicide Prevention Line’ that RESPECTS the person’s right to decide their own fate… Bit ingenuous, that. You want somebody to help you NOT suicide, you call the hotline. If you want help in exercising your ”choice,” you call Dr Kevorkian.

Good point. There is also such a thing as a "living will" which you can give someone the power of attorney so that if you are on life-support and don’t want to be a vegetable there is someone legally to make decisions. Of course, each state is different. And it doesn’t work if you’re ambulatory but depressed. But anyway – a suicide hotline is specifically set up to help people who *want* to live but can’t stand the pain anymore. If you really want to kill yourself there’s plenty of drug dealers and gun shops around to get what you need. Calling the suicide hotline to yell at them about your right to die seems kind of silly and petty. That’s like going to the hardware store and yelling at them cause you can’t buy apples there – that’s not what they’re in the business for. Whether it means revenue or not, hospitals are so overwhelmingly in the business of keeping people from dying that they’re not SET UP to assist people in dying. Licensing considerations aside.

Once again – hospitals were made to keep people alive. You’re going to the wrong place if you want them to kill you. And if you want people to *let* you kill yourself then don’t go to the places which are in the business of keeping people alive. It sounds like you just want someone or something to blame for how bad you feel. Although, I agree that people who are being kept artificially alive should be given the choice if they want to stay alive or not – but you can’t just go to a hospital and expect them to assist you in suicide because you’re depressed. That’s not realistic. people do not commit suicide, they only say that they don’t feel like living anymore ( i know, i’ve felt this way as long as i can remember)…i am NOT saying that depression/suicical fellings are OK, merely, that the ‘industry’ has

I’ve managed to miss this "anti-suicide" industry. There’s a lot of counselors and hospitals out there. But given what they have to work with there’s not *that* much anyone can do about depression. Research is still going on on correct medications and what helps – but it’s a baffling illness. Also – people do commit suicide. One of my best friends did three years ago. this mis-guided, quasi-Right-To-Life attitude that merely focuses on keeping the patient alive without helping the person find a REASON to live which is what they are lacking… Physical-medicine hospitals are not there to help you find internal reasons for things. I agree that it is good to HAVE a reason to live, but it’s unrealistic to expect a hospital to provide you with one, as if it could be introduced in an IV drip.

A sad but true fact. Nobody is going to *give* you a reason to live. Nobody can give *anyone* a reason to live. I had some choices at the peak of my depression when I was sitting on the bathroom floor with a bottle of Jack Daniels and a razor blade. *I* had to come up with a reason to live – ie: a reason to do everything in my power to make sure I wasn’t so depressed I couldn’t function anymore. So, I’ve tried medications, I’ve tried excercise, proper diet, counseling, herbs … and it comes and goes. Sometimes I am so depressed I don’t feel like I can function, but sometimes I feel pretty good. But I had to come up with my own reason to live. No one is going to "give" you one. Hospitals will put on casts and bandage wounds and treat infections – they aren’t there to "fix" you and make it all better. Therapists can do what they can – but you’re the only one in the world who can look around and say, "OK – there’s got to be something here that I can use as a reason to live." For awhile my only reason to live was because of lattes and chocolate chip cookies. OK – I’ll live one more day so I can have one more latte. When I had a broken neck in ‘93 and was stuck in traction in 110 degree heat and was physically miserable and stir-crazy. I decided I would live through each painting that I started. "Well, can’t kill myself today – didn’t finish that painting yet." One of my clients who has AIDS – and has had it for 16 years now and has all sorts of really unpleasant physical problems. He decides not to kill himself by remembering that there’s another baseball season coming up. HA! Give me a reason to live, then, we’ll talk!

I really don’t think anyone is going to give you a reason to live. And as long as it’s everyone else’s fault and "we’ve got it so good and you’ve got it so bad and none of us are sharing" – I think you’re probably going to be miserable for a long time. Personally, I could give you hundreds of reasons to live from good espresso to great sex to traveling to good movies to loud music to dancing, running in the rain listening to "White Zombie", playing with kittens, writing a story, singing, flying in planes, sitting in the sun, air conditioning on a blistering hot day, a heating duct on a sub-zero freezing day, laughing, hot baths, bright colors, watching birds fly, going to the zoo, reading a really great poem, watching children play, getting a good night’s sleep, swimming, playing with a dog, riding a galloping horse, learning to play an instrument, painting a picture (no matter how bad it may look to you!), garlic, chocolate, Pinky & the Brain, the Tick, playing old video games, smiling at someone and watching them smile back, holding someone’s hand while they cry and seeing it really help them, making a creatures life a little more comfortable – even for just an hour … And I bet you have an argument for all of these. Why bother? Life has no meaning so why bother? My answer – well, it might have meaning. We’ll probably never know what it is. But you’re here now – why not at least try to enjoy it instead of wasting it waiting for someone to either kill you or fix you? It’s going to suck – everybody’s life sucks on some level or another. Especially if you’re still hoping that many  people aren’t assholes and things will make sense and bad things won’t happen. But if you can’t come up with *anything* you like about it here – I doubt anyone can help you. Julia Julia * http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tankgrrl "Oh God, Mulder, it smells like… I think it’s bile." "Is there any way I can get it off my fingers quickly  without betraying my cool exterior?"

Response:

Dear Stef, I have not seen all your posts, but it sounds as if you are exhausted by panic attacks or nervous spells and have not been able to see a doctor yet. Maybe while you are waiting you might want to try an herb from a health food store called dong quai herb which I have found to be very helpful.  Please dont hurt yourself, you sound like a wonderful person and there are good things ahead for you.  Best regards, B. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Oh, well.  I went to the Dr’s today and was turned away b/c too many doctors were sick that day and they couldn’t accommodate me.  So now more waiting.  I even told a counselor (all that was available) how bad my problem has gotten and that I am beginning to feel like I want to die and he was nice but I still ended up outside with no answers.  No wonder so many people commit suicide, I can’t believe people pretend that there are sooo many people listening, when even trained medical doctors turn me away. Loosing hope and everything else, quickly, Stef — **Please post** all responses b/c my e-mail is mad at me

Response:

Stef I agree with other people that if you are feeling the way you say you need help and support – if you can hassle them until they take notice or get someone else to. trouble is of course if you’re feeling this way the responses you’ve had from those you expect to help you can just reinforce your negative feelings about yourself and the world. I’m not going to excuse those on the ‘other side of the fence’ but I do have experience of both being a psychiatrist and someone just coming out of a severe depressive episode. I live and work in the UK but your description of the state of services sounds horribly familiar. this played a major part in causing my own illness. sometimes a whole system is ’sick’. this last bit probably isn’t much help to you at the moment – try and hang in there – their are people who care even if they are only on the other end of a modem. best wishes and let me know if I can be of any more help. Mark – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Oh, well.  I went to the Dr’s today and was turned away b/c too many doctors were sick that day and they couldn’t accommodate me.  So now more waiting.  I even told a counselor (all that was available) how bad my problem has gotten and that I am beginning to feel like I want to die and he was nice but I still ended up outside with no answers.  No wonder so many people commit suicide, I can’t believe people pretend that there are sooo many people listening, when even trained medical doctors turn me away. Loosing hope and everything else, quickly, Stef — **Please post** all responses b/c my e-mail is mad at me

Response:

No wonder so many people commit suicide, I can’t believe people pretend that there are sooo many people listening, when even trained medical doctors turn me away. Loosing hope and everything else, quickly, Stef — **Please post** all responses b/c my e-mail is mad at me

We’re listing (If I may say we, I’m pretty new here). Don’t forget about crisis phone line too. When I went to CMH, it took them 3 weeks to find me a counsuler (sp!!). But they sent me to the hospital to get meds to tide me over. Maybe I was lucky. Maybe they’ll try that for you. Maybe, I’ll type maybe again. Yer Bud,    Jim

Response:

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